Oct 23
Where is StoneLoops? Or how to get rid of your competition in the Apple AppStore?
I know that lately I haven’t been blogging a lot, but recently something very notable happened that I feel everybody should learn about. As you know our marble popping game StoneLoops! of Jurassica has been ported to the iPhone platform and proved to be a huge success. It stayed in the global US app top 10 for almost two months and never dropped out of top 100. Until now that is, because today StoneLoops! has been removed from the App Store by Apple on the request of… MumboJumbo.
If you don’t know Mumbo Jumbo, this is the company that creates Luxor marble popping games. In fact Luxor is one of the biggest marble popper franchises in the entire casual games market. When StoneLoops! was released on the PC and MAC it was over 3 years after the first Luxor game and the marble popping genre was almost dead. In result StoneLoops! never reached any serious top-tens and has stayed in the shadow of the giants - Luxor and Zuma. But on the iPhone it was the other way round.
Together with an external company Playcreek we managed to prepare a very solid port of StoneLoops! to the iPhone platform. It was a great success for us that we managed to launch the game sooner than MumboJumbo managed to complete their iPhone port of Luxor. In result the roles for StoneLoops! and Luxor have reversed in the AppStore. Due to an excellent port and good timing our game became the genre leader receiving hundreds of positive user reviews. In the meanwhile Luxor for the iPhone received very little attention and quickly dropped out of the various top100’s. I can imagine that MumboJumbo wasn’t entirely satisfied with this result, but hey – what can you do about it? It seems you can do quite a lot…
About 3 weeks ago we have learned that MumboJumbo supplied Apple with a formal complaint and a request to remove StoneLoops! from the AppStore. The reason? Infringing Luxor copyright, confusing customers, stealing Luxor’s look & feel and even stealing their source code! This might sound absurd to anyone who knows both games but apparently Apple decided otherwise as we’ve been requested to prepare a formal response, which we did. We described how ungrounded each claim is and supplied various materials to back our claims.
Among all the MumboJumbo claims there was a single one which had some merit. The users were able to input “Luxor” in the iTunes search field and StoneLoops! was one of the returned results. Of course Luxor was still the first result. This was because the game description featured several excerpts from game reviews. The one which caused the “problem” was a citation from GameZebo – “more than worthy match for even more established industry goliaths like Zuma and Luxor…”. Our response was that we are willing to remove this part from the game description if Apple decides that this common practice is not appropriate in this situation.
Several weeks have passed since our response and we started thinking that Apple has ruled in favor of our explanations. Unfortunately to our great surprise today we have learned that StoneLoops! had been removed from the AppStore. It was also quite a shock to learn that the final decision was actually made by MumboJumbo as apparently Apple asked them if our response was satisfactory. Of course MumboJumbo replied that they still want StoneLoops! removed. After all if you were to decide whether your direct competition will be allowed to sell products or not, would you allow them? Talk about unfair competition – Luxor is selling, StoneLoops! is not. I wonder what happens when Zuma launches in the AppStore. Will PopCap request to remove Luxor with similar claims? Such case would be identical.
In fact if Apple stands by its decision this will create a dangerous precedence. If you are a developer and have an application in the AppStore you should quickly request Apple to remove the apps of your competition, before someone else requests to remove you! I don’t believe this can get any more absurd, but this is exactly where this reasoning is getting us.
Another funny thing is that MumboJumbo was one of the publishers considered when releasing StoneLoops! They’ve been shown the game before it was launched and never expressed any serious interest in it or any doubts about copyright. This of course changed when our game performed considerably better on the iPhone.
Unfortunately this is all of the story so far, but I hope it’s not the end. We’ll be trying to bring StoneLoops! back into the AppStore and I’ll be writing about new developments as they unfold. In the meantime if you want to play StoneLoops! you can do it on a MAC or a PC. In fact you can get StoneLoops! on almost every casual game portal – the game has been selling right next to Luxor and other marble poppers for years without any problems whatsoever…
October 23rd, 2009 at 12:52 pm
[...] the popular marble shooter StoneLoops! of Jurassica, has just posted a disheartening bit of news on his personal blog. According to Biedrzycki, StoneLoops! of Jurassica was pulled from the App Store today at [...]
October 23rd, 2009 at 1:06 pm
That is not cool. StoneLoops! is better than Luxor too…!
October 23rd, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Wow… That’s horrible. StoneLoops is one of those games that I play fairly consistently. I hope this will be resolved quickly, and in your favour (funny enough, I’ve never heard of the petitioning company before).
October 23rd, 2009 at 1:28 pm
[...] The developer of Stone Loops, a marble game that used to be available in the App Store, has a very discouraging tale to tell in his blog today. Obviously, this is only one side of the story, but it does seem very suspicious to me that [...]
October 23rd, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Sorry to hear about this. It does seem like Apple leans towards larger publishers. When you see the App Store and all of the “advertisements” on it, Apple says they are all hand picked. You and I both know that people pay for that.
On the other hand that 2 months on the top 10 list should help you get a good lawyer.
October 23rd, 2009 at 1:31 pm
I really loved StoneLoops. I wish it comes back and regains it position.
October 23rd, 2009 at 1:39 pm
So, who do we email within Apple to complain about this?
October 23rd, 2009 at 1:53 pm
This is one of the reasons why I switch to Android next year.
October 23rd, 2009 at 2:13 pm
This is particular worrying. Hope it all gets resolved in your favour.
BTW I just emailed support@mumbojumbo.com (couldn’t help myself) and asked whether they ’sell StoneLoops! because I prefer it to Luxor’. I’m not expecting a reply.
October 23rd, 2009 at 2:35 pm
I’d recommend bringing StoneLoops! to the Cydia store.
October 23rd, 2009 at 2:53 pm
I have emailed Mumbo Jumbo repeatedly to address the fact that Luxor for iPhone is a bug ridden mess (especially 13-6 and 13-10). I have neither received a satisfactory response nor a revised, bug fixed version to date. I emailed to tell them that their time would be better spent fixing their broken code than attacking much more stable competing products. If things do not change in short order, I will request a refund from the App Store and suggest everyone else do the same
October 23rd, 2009 at 3:18 pm
I agree with you and most of comments here. This is ridiculous. Have you considered filing suit against Apple and/or Mumbo? FWIW, I purchased both Stoneloops and Luxor for my wife. Stoneloops is the one she plays. It’s just better.
October 23rd, 2009 at 3:27 pm
This is just ridiculous!!! Stupid move from MumboJumbo!
October 23rd, 2009 at 3:48 pm
This is unfair. Two marble popping games on the iPhone is a problem, yet an absurd amount of (bad) Bejeweled clones is ok? It doesn’t make any since. I’m glad I got a copy of Stoneloops before this. Great game!
October 23rd, 2009 at 4:15 pm
I agree with one of the commenters above, move it to the Cydia Store if Apple won’t sell it.
October 23rd, 2009 at 4:35 pm
If those claims are true, then that is very dangerous indeed and unnerving.
October 23rd, 2009 at 5:07 pm
[...] why, with a genuine cry of dismay, I read the very sad news from Maciej Biedrzycki, co-founder of Codeminion Development Studios, that StoneLoops! was pulled [...]
October 23rd, 2009 at 5:17 pm
[...] One of TiPb’s favorite iPhone games, indeed the game that cost some of us fingerprints on our index fingers, StoneLoops! of Jurassica has been pulled from the iTunes App Store following a copyright infringement complaint from Luxor-maker MumboJumbo. According to the developers’ blog Casual Games Harmony: [...]
October 23rd, 2009 at 5:36 pm
What a bad precedent Apple is setting here. This will open the floodgates of companies with competing products petitioning for there competitor’s product to be removed.
October 23rd, 2009 at 8:49 pm
You should file a formal complaint against MumboJumbo’s app.
October 23rd, 2009 at 9:28 pm
So did they do this to Atlantis Sky Patrol too? or were they afraid Big Fish games could afford a better lawyer?
October 23rd, 2009 at 11:13 pm
I did not play your game but it is really a shame to see what Apple is doing. They believed a crook named Tim Langdell and now this!! so absurd. They really don’t care of small developers. Please everyone stop saying it is a clone of Zuma, because Zuma is a clone of Puzz Loop, a 1998 arcade puzzle game developed by Mitchell Corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puzz_Loop)
October 24th, 2009 at 12:27 am
Shitty MumboJumbo
StoneLoops is much better than Luxor!
October 24th, 2009 at 1:12 am
What about all the fart apps infringing on others property? And the confusion I had as a consumer?! I was TOTALLY lost in the App store because of it.
*sigh* stupid Apple. I’m glad to say I already own your game, and it is a very solid one at that. I definitely won’t consider Luxor for this reason alone. For you, of all developers, to get nailed for something that is done WAAAAYYY worse by other companies in the App Store.
What I mean is, in some cases I could see this, when there is blatant plagiarism, but that isn’t the case here. Don’t get me wrong. Also the name being in your App, there are ones that are clearly just name dropping to get searches, and yours was barely even doing that.
Bah!
October 24th, 2009 at 1:15 am
[...] Biedrzycki, co-founder of Codeminion, developers of StoneLoops explained on his blog today the reasoning behind the recent removal, which all boils down to a complaint filed by Mumbo Jumbo, [...]
October 24th, 2009 at 2:14 am
This is really shameful. Apple owns the AppStore, right? Why are they allowing the publishers to call the shots about which game to stay in AppStore, and which one to be removed?
Also, MumboJumbo’s claims about copyright are funny, I think. There are countless numbers of marble poppers in the PC casual space and 4-5 on iPhone itself. Have they taken action against each of them? Also, is it itself original? Of course not. At least Puzz Loop and Zuma have released before (however, the shooting platform was a bit different - at the center and could move 360 degrees in these games).
Regarding the games, imo, Stoneloops! pawns Luxor on any given day.
Apple should step in and bring Stoneloops! back.
At our side, we can make an online petition I think.
Regarding the Cydia Store suggestion, I think, it will be really cool. However, the sale won’t be that much, because the number of jailbroken devices is far less (around 8%).
October 24th, 2009 at 5:24 am
[...] wszystkichwielbicieli firmy Aplle. Przeczytajcie sobie to. W skrócie to gra StoneLoops Polskiej firmy Codeminion została usunięta z iTunes ze względu na [...]
October 24th, 2009 at 9:26 am
http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/clones.htm (look for Zuma)
October 24th, 2009 at 11:21 am
Wow… didn’t know Mumbo Jumbo were such a bunch of a**holes. Not happy about Apple’s attitude either. I hope Stone Loops comes back soon to the App Store!
October 24th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Wow, Apple constantly surprises me with how absolutely idiotic they can be. Sometimes I wonder how the hell they became as popular as they are when they regularly make idiotic moves like this. The whole point of the entire economy is the Peoples Choice. If competition didn’t exist than that freedom of choice would be ripped out of our hands. People need to be more upset about this. What can we do to help?
October 24th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
[...] Biedrzycki, co-founder of Codeminion, developers of StoneLoops explained on his blog today the reasoning behind the recent removal, which all boils down to a complaint filed by Mumbo Jumbo, [...]
October 24th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
Stoneloops is clearly better than Luxor! Good thing I bought your game earlier. My girlfriend and I enjoy it so much. What a pity it’s not selling anymore because of Luxor’s stupidity. I saw lots of 1 star + bad reviews on Luxor’s iTunes page which I think they should continue to flow in.
October 24th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Mac is not spelled MAC.
October 24th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Witam,
chcielibyśmy opisać dokładnie całą sprawę na MyApple.pl. Czy możemy prosić o kontakt pod mail podany w komentarzu?
October 24th, 2009 at 11:43 pm
[...] time to do your bid for CodeMinion, the developer of the much-loved Stoneloops! of Jurassica which was unfortunately removed, [...]
October 25th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Stone loops is so much better than Luxor. You should have said that they stole you’re source code. Because to be frank. That game is so lame !! All tough it’s the same concept but you present it much more beautifully.
October 25th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Mumbo Jumbo and Pop Cap don’t have legs to stand on. What a sick pathetic bunch of hypocrites!
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1797/soapbox_ripping_off_japan__.php
October 26th, 2009 at 7:11 am
This is horrible and obviously not right. While persuing a legal route, you could maybe also change the theme graphics even further and re-release.
October 26th, 2009 at 9:00 am
You cloned Luxor, which cloned Zuma, which in turn cloned Puzzloop…
I hope you (the nice one) will show these cloners (bad guys, grr) you are a smarter cloner
Yes, sincerely.
But, be prepared, the “cloning” game is:
legal:33%
marketing:33%
ressource management: 33%
game design: 1%
October 26th, 2009 at 10:18 am
mmmh, pot calling kettle black here i think. When i looked for the others on deck didn’t you actually have Zuma, Luxor and a number of other products in your search criteria for Stoneloops? Not strictly speaking playing is straight???
I have more sympathy for the Mobigame guys who made an astounding piece of original IP only to be hounded off deck by Tim Langdell and his ‘Edge’ copyright trolling. That’s wrong. This is an argument over who cloned whom and who was first.
October 26th, 2009 at 6:52 pm
I wonder ho was the mother-fucker apple employee ho removes the game from app-store. If you have the money, try to find a lawyer, you could win this case pretty easy, and apple will surely fire the guy ho removes your game.
Cheers.
October 27th, 2009 at 9:08 am
[...] informacji na temat sprawy przeczytać możecie na anglojęzycznym blogu Macieja Biedrzyckiego, a o tym, jak Apple traktuje twórców aplikacji we wpisie Podajcie wazelinę, bo Apple nas [...]
October 27th, 2009 at 9:11 am
[...] Maciej Biedrzycki, co-fondateur de la firme Codeminion, développeur de StoneLoops, explique dans son blog les raisons d’un tel choix de la part [...]
October 27th, 2009 at 9:12 am
Hi from France !
yes, I do love the StoneLoops! game on my iphone, it is one of my favourites !
Great sounds, great game animation, a must have
I recently updated my laptop from Windows Vista to Seven, and discovered that I was no more able (authorize) to download this game, that I BOUGHT !
I hope that you will find an isse to this, because you have done a very good job and because your product was amazing.
I do not understand the Apple policies in that case… so, take care, Apple could sell a product and the day after decide to do NOT support the DOWNLOAD of the product you BOUGHT, knowing that there is no other WAY to reinstall the product in case you change your PC … is it very clever and very legal ?
Guys, I hope that you will find an issue, even if I have to buy it AGAIN, and I will look for all your new products in the future because you are good developers.
Cheers
October 27th, 2009 at 10:11 am
I’m not affiliated with either of these companies.
I must be in the minority here… and maybe I don’t understand how things work when it comes to making games, but if I invent a game concept, implement it, and then someone comes along and takes my idea but makes it better, it seems to me that even if the new guy’s work is better than mine, it’s still infringing on my intellectual property. I think I should have the right to have it taken down.
I don’t think I could get away with making a game where the users make a little yellow circle run around a maze and eat dots without Bandai/Namco coming after me.
Gamers need new games, not the same old rehashes.
October 27th, 2009 at 10:29 am
@Brian - your theory would make sure that Castle Wolfenstein was the only shooter out there.
As for Mumbo Jumbo, the solution is pretty simple. File a lawsuit. I don’t know why people are so reluctant - sue for unfair competition, deceptive trade practices, etc. Insist on an injunction on their sales as well as a share of the profits they have made at your expense.
It costs money, but frankly a bully is a bully and if you don’t stand up for yourself, nobody else is going to either.
October 27th, 2009 at 10:31 am
I’d like to thank everyone for their interest and support!
As for the negative opinions, please note that we’ve never stated that our game is 100% original. StoneLoops! is only one of many marble poppers and so is Luxor. Puzz Lop was the first marble popper if I’m not mistaken. Also please note that other marble poppers, some even more similar to Luxor are still being sold in the AppStore, but it was StoneLoops! that was removed probably due to its success.
October 27th, 2009 at 11:30 am
@Maciek:
That’s terrible that you guys were singled out. I think that’s unfair. I also think it’s unfair to directly assert that your app was removed because it was popular. You’re stating opinion as fact. If I were you I’d lawyer up and go after the company that complained.
October 27th, 2009 at 11:33 am
@akatsuki That’s very true, but still, a company does have a right to protect its intellectual property. And sometimes they have an obligation to do so. And if you read carefully, a lot of those FPS games licensed technology from id early on. How do you know that royalties are not paid?
October 28th, 2009 at 4:50 am
@Brian: you clearly don’t understand how game business works. First of all, gamers don’t want new games as much as they say they want. Second, you can’t protect a game idea or concept - only execution. So you would get away with PacMac clone as long as you don’t use PacMan character or other IP (of which there is not much in original version).
My personal opinion is that Stoneloops was removed for 2 reasons: it was much more popular than other marble poppers and because Codeminion is based far away from USA… from some weird country called Poland where they probably don’t know what lawyers are (I’m from Poland). Many of you advice to get a lawyer, but it’s ain’t so easy, since we’re coming into International grounds here.
All the best to Stoneloops and Codeminion.
October 28th, 2009 at 8:01 am
[...] Szczegóły na blogu autorów (po angielsku). [...]
October 28th, 2009 at 8:49 am
@Brian:
It’s true that you have the right to protect your IP but the point here is that Luxor is just another clone, not the original concept maker (Puzz Loop here).
So how dare they ask for StoneLoops removal since they’re infringing the very same IP themselves?
The only one who would have legitimacy asking for removal(s) is Mitchell, maker of Puzz Loop.
October 28th, 2009 at 10:41 am
Should I pay some royalties to my friend Super Mario Bros.? after all we are both plateformers with a jumping character…
October 28th, 2009 at 10:56 am
@ Brian,
Why did MumboJumbo not stop Stoneloops to be sold in the PC space? The answer is simple - Luxor is the bigger player there. They want to be big here (iPhone) too and so, this ploy.
Actually, contrary to what others believe, I think Apple is the party to be blamed here. As Maciek pointed out, being given the chance, those a*sh*les (read MumboJumbo) would never allow a competitor.
Sue them (Apple and MumboJumbo). It is a case to be won, fair and square.
October 28th, 2009 at 11:37 am
That’s the risk with such a completely closed platform. Look into Android and N900. You might not have the same market size, but at least you get the chance to compete.
October 28th, 2009 at 10:47 pm
“BTW I just emailed support@mumbojumbo.com (couldn’t help myself) and asked whether they ’sell StoneLoops! because I prefer it to Luxor’. I’m not expecting a reply.”
If you’re interested in helping Codeminion, this is the very last thing you should do! Emails like this will just be fodder for MumboJumbo’s lawyers in claiming that there is a substantial likelihood of confusion between StoneLoops and Luxor.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:36 am
[...] has been removed by Apple because MumboJumbo, makers of the Luxor marble game franchise, filed a complaint to Apple that Stoneloops violated their copyright by stealing their looks and source [...]
November 1st, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Hope to see StoneLoops! back in the App Store soon.
November 2nd, 2009 at 11:55 am
Bring back StoneLoops! I lost my version on my iphone after my laptop needed a new hard drive. Am now missing my fix! Instead of whinging, MumboJumbo (what an apt name!) should improve their version to win custom not cry to Apple about it. Am I right in thinking they aren’t the original creators of this type of game anyway?!! StoneLoops! is far in advance of all its competitors, Apple you should be ashamed.
November 7th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
[...] Sadly Langdell isn’t the only one that’s discovered the trick of using Apple to remove the competition from the App store. Side stepping the whole EDGE Games set of shenanigans for a moment we’d like to show you another case of Apple’s dispute policy abuse. Recently Stoneloops! of Jurrasica was taken off the App store after a request from a rival company was sent to Apple, making what seemed to be unsupported allegations of code theft, design theft as well as other claims of infringement. It’s an interesting story and deserves your attention. [...]
November 8th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
There’s a similar story up about another developer trying to get rid of competition in a similar way on OSNew.
http://www.osnews.com/story/22458/How_Apple_Handles_App_Store_Infringement_Complaints_Badly
November 9th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Wow, I guess that since I came out with the first ever combat flight sim on the iPhone, I should be able to (following Apple’s logic shown here) to request and have all my competing apps (Top Gun, F.A.S.T, Etc) removed from the App Store, right?? Ridiculous in my opinion. What’s worse is Apple’s double standards… “You can’t do XYZ, but we can.” sort of stuff. Alas, this is the life we iPhone developers have chosen…
November 12th, 2009 at 7:51 am
Any news?
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:33 pm
If this company has to resort to tactics like this to keep their product at the top, their brand identity is clearly weak and they should be addressing that within their own marketing department. For instance, yes there are millions of Bejeweled clones, but Bejeweled is a loved and recognized brand that many choose over these clones every day! The same goes with any major brand of soda or jeans: if brand loyalty is built through a strong product, competitors, knockoffs, and generics aren’t the end of the world.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
I’m glad I got my copy of Stoneloops on my itouch, it’s one of my favorites in my spare time to play.
December 29th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Crazy I switched phones & went looking for StoneLoops. It has become my favorite game & now I cant get it back, disgusted with Apple!!!!!!!!
January 21st, 2010 at 1:16 pm
The same thing just happened to us. Our main competition complained and we got pulled from the store without even having a chance to argue our case.
Let’s rally together and try to persuade Apple to stop this policy - it’s bad for developers and customers. Sign the petition here: http://www.app-vault.com/blog/app-removed-from-app-store-at-request-of-competition/
January 22nd, 2010 at 4:11 pm
That’s a despicable practice and you’re right in that it sets a horrible precedent. Unbelievable. No wonder everyone’s jumping to the Android.
January 22nd, 2010 at 6:10 pm
The fact is that both games are in one way or another clones of PuzzLoop, but as far as I know there are no legal issues with cloning games as long as you don’t use any of their IP. Having made a game with game play mechanics borrowed from other games… I hope you fight this to the bitter end… and good luck!
January 26th, 2010 at 12:37 am
Well, recently Mumbo Jumbo won a lawsuit against PopCap regarding the allegations that PopCop did some things that harmed MumboJumbo’s ability to sell to/through Walmart. Now, all you have to do is sue MumboJumbo under the very same similar alegations. (The question is, are your sales damages high enough to warrant such a suit? If you were only selling like 10 copies a week, then I’d say no, not worth it). BUT you could hire a lawyer for about $200 to draft a letter to Mumbo regarding these “interferences” to your conducting business.
March 9th, 2010 at 8:45 pm
I went looking for this on the appstore to download it to my friends iphone. This is an awesome game, it sits on my home screen and I play it constantly. It’s apps like this that sell the iphone! My sympathies for you dealing with apple. Unless there is something more substantial than these allegations there is no way Loops should have been pulled. Hang in there. I will be waiting for it to reappear so I can spruik it for you
April 28th, 2010 at 9:24 pm
I am a very experienced Expert Witness in the video game space, in the areas of copyright infringement, patents, etc. Contact me through my web site if you’d like to discuss the stone loops issue.
Garry Kitchen